David is a wacky character thus far.
First we have him send some men out to pick up some dinner. When the total stranger denies them food in order that he may feed his own servants, all hell breaks loose. David is ready to take action. However the greedy bastards wife comes and brings food. She's in an unhappy marriage and has nothing to lose. She has something to gain however, and she does (gain that is). A few days later God smites her e veal husband and she takes up with David. That was one heck of a first date.
Then Saul makes another appearance. Yea! Love the stumbling, bumbling Saul. We get sort of a repeat performance of the cave scene. Instead of swiping his skirt however, this time he takes his spear and water bottle. Yes, as a sleeping Saul lays there unaware, David COULD have killed him A GAIN, but chose to mess with his mind a little more. I know he is trying to prove a point to the moron, but I say enough is enough. Apparently this guy isn't going to learn so lets just take him out.
Now we have David moving in with the Philistines? Is this strange? I feel like this is strange? David I think is going through his "finding myself" period of life...maybe?
More Psalms of David:
35 feels like it was written in the middle of a very emotional breakdown. LOTS of exclamation points, lots of anger which feels directed at God. LOVE 35:16
When I read 63, it was like a glimpse into the Christian brain. I get how great it must be to truly love and desire something so great. Finding comfort in "knowing" that something much bigger than you has your back must be a good feeling.
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The thing is , obout that good feeling. Is that it's delusion and unnecessary. It's like willfully breaking your own legs and getting crutches, then acting like the crutches were what you needed all along.
Before I post my regular comment and answer any question Crystal may have...
Anon, you've got it totally backwards. You are assuming we are born with healthy working legs, but we are not. We are born unable to walk, cripple. God offers us a cure so that we can walk. It is our choice to accept that free gift or not. That is to say, that we are already on the path to Hell, because we are born into sin (as sinners). God offers us salvation from that. This is what the Bible teaches us and what reality of human behavior demonstrates - that we are not inherently good. The delusion is the belief that we are ok. The crutch(es) is money, sex, drugs, etc. They are fleeting and temporary. And they never make us able to truly walk on our own.
I detect a note of cynicism (sp?).. I didn't get that Abigail helped David because she knew or hoped her husband would die. It didn't even say she was unhappy with him. It did say she was an intelligent, wise woman. And she seemed to have a sense of fairness and goodness. It was that sense that prodded her to return David's kindness with kindness.
Those good feelings of something greater than us having our back just aren't hopes and wishes. Christians believe they are demonstrated in almost every part of life and history. As you and I have talked about before, Christians (and even many non-Christians) believe there is something bigger than us. That is, something supernatural. The best, most intelligent, notable scientists in history have thought so....that there is a Creator. Even if they don't call Him, God. So, to us we don't think it's just a feeling or superstition, but a fact backed up by history and science. I'm getting too off subject. You and I have talked about this stuff before, anyway.
After everything David has done to the Phils does anyone really not believe that he has the favor and protection of the Lord to be able to live with them, and even in the royal city as though he is being honored by them.
David is continually asking God to hear his prayers, and we can be assured that He does. The problem is we not only want God to hear and answer our prayers, but we want them to be answered the way we want them to be answered. It's not enough that they're just answered. It's almost like we want to take away God's freewill, and pull His puppet strings. If He did everything we asked wo exception, what freewill would He have? David isn't concerned with how God will answer his prayers, just that He answers them. David trusts that it will be with mercy and loving-kindness. He calls upon God to help him fight his battles, but you'll notice David is willing to do his part. God helps those who help themselves. Sometimes it's believing and expecting, sometimes it's doing what we can, and allowing Him to make up the difference.
Ps35:27 Magnify the Lord, dont magnify your problems. and vs. 28 says Give God the glory, tell people of the great things He's done in your life.
Ps 63:6 tells us we should meditate on Him (and on His Word). Don't lay in bed at night thinking of who wronged you and how you can get back at them. Let God be your vindicator. Meditate and think on what went right that day, and all the people who were good to you, and what you can do to help others. Does this make the bad go away? Of course not, but why dwell on it?
63:11 is great. "But the king shall rejoice in God; everyone who swears by Him [that is, who binds himself by God's authority, acknowledging His supremacy, and devoting himself to His service alone; every such one] shall glory, for the mouths of those who speak lies shall be stopped."
Tomorrow, 1 Sam. 28-31; Ps. 18; 1 Chron. 10
I don't see that at all, about the crutches. When I have a bad day and someone I love makes me feel better it doesn't mean I created the bad day just so I could feel better when my kids hugged me?
Crystal,
The reason you don't understand Jamie's point about the crutches is that on closer examination it turns into good old-fashioned gibberish.
If we are not good, if we are born flawed and destined for Hell, then who's fault is it? Is it the baby's fault for being born or is it God's fault for making the baby flawed in the first place?
God (who knows everything future and past) created all of humanity with a flaw. What is that flaw? Why free will of course We have the ability to think for ourselves. Heck, we're pretty good at it when we're left alone.
Unfortunately, when God gets involved, He starts demanding His followers commit genocide, murder/rape women (who are just property anyway) and commit infanticide. Oh, and let's not forget slavery is A-OK!
Remember a few books ago when God's chosen people wisely didn't kill all the babies? God got mad at them for using they're God-given free will. Wow! What an amazing, loving, perfect, all-powerful God He is...
According to Jamie's view, our free will is a trick. God allows us to hold it, but we can never use it. If we do, we will suffer eternal torment by the Devil's hands in a place called Hell. Keep in mind God created the Devil and Hell.
Why did he do this you may ask? Was there no other way? Of course there was! We can imagine countless other realities that are vastly more moral and fair than the one Jamie believes God created.
The real crutch here is Jamie's silly, immoral beliefs.
You know S, I thought I'd read your comment cuz I made a funny about you, and thought out of respect I'd see if you jabbed me back. But I only read the first sentence or two, and it dawned on me that you're not very smart. I understand why now you can't comprehend the Bible...reading comprehension is NOT one of your strong suits, although I'm sure you have many others. I'll let Crystal help you from here.
Jamie,
I hope you pray for forgiveness since you have lied about never reading our posts. Why are Christians so cavalier about keeping their promises? Is it b/c they can immediately "pray away" the sin? How convenient for them.
I saw your childish taunts, but I decided to ignore them because I'm an adult who is trying to have a serious discussion.
Honestly, I feel sorry for you. Your jabs only strengthen my position. You cannot civilly respond to my arguments with anything resembling logic and reason so you have to attack me personally.
"Ad-hominem"is the only recourse for a man who has nothing but ancient myths and personal bigotry to justify his beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
You are right about one thing, though. I did misunderstand Crystal's post, but get this... my response still address her point! How is that possible? Because my arguments are based in reality and use logic and reason.
On the other hand, you have no answers for my points so you continue to attack me personally.
Jamie, if you can't address my points, please continue to pretend you're not reading them. When you personally attack me while ignoring my arguments, you reveal the weakness of your own argument in the most embarrassing way.
Jamie, I forgive you.
I'm flesh and blood and not make-believe, so you know you're getting the real deal forgiveness.
You are forgiven for your sin.
Crystal,
I'm sorry I misunderstood your post, but I still stand by the arguments in my post despite my error.
I would d be happy to discuss in more detail if you want.
Steven, you're really not that smart are you. If I had your reading comprehension skills, I'd probably believe like you do, too. I never lied. You, apparently, know as much about lying as you do free will. Lying is intentionally saying something that is untrue. I've never done that on this blog. I was 100% sincere when I said I wouldn't read your comments, and I haven't; until Crystal asked me to read the one, and then, as I said earlier, I read to see if you'd responded. I can change my mind about reading your non-sensical comments whenever I want. That does not change my intention or sincerety of when I first said I wouldn't. And for the last time, the quality of choices has nothing to do with the ability to freely choose between them. If you can't understand that, then there's really no point in any dialogue with you because you clearly have a learning disability to which I am not properly trained to "break through". Regardless, the argument of free will has no place in this blog on any level, esp. a prolonged one. Do you really think people don't see the challenge that was laid out to you about debating the things you seem to want to debate? You claim because I don't answer you that I must have nothing to back it up, but I've said I will debate you on any subject on another blog after we finish this one, but it is YOU who is too scared to take the challenge. Once again, you are too dense to see that, I guess. YOU are the only one who can't see how stupid that claim is. BTW, there's nothing un-Christian about pointing out senseless and stupid and baseless claims.
Being able to pray away your sin IS decidedly convenient. That is why it's so foolish not to. Thanks for making God's point once again. See, He can even use you. Someone who seems totally useless.
FYI, there is nothing ancient about my God. He is eternally relevant.
Just cause you don't get it doesn't make it illogical. There are many people who don't get physics or calculus, but that doesn't make those disciplines illogical. Your point about crutches address nothing about what we're talking about, and the fact that you still think it does, shows how little understanding you truly have.
I don't pretend to not read your comments. I don't read them. I've read the ones I said I read for the reasons I said I read them. You shouldn't judge me to be as weak as you. I wouldn't give up anyone, esp. my mother no matter what the torture. I'm not afraid to die, and would rather do so, then to embarass or dishonor my God, my unit, my Army, my family, or my country.
There is something that supports and explains God's creation(s). It's called science, you should look into it. You'd be getting a lesson in it right now if you'd man up and had accepted my originial challenge to debate on another blog. But, as I said before, and everyone can read, you're not confident enough in either your ability or beliefs to meet that challenge. And, honestly, since your cannot even grasp the simple definition of free will and choice, I wouldn't know how to explain even the simplest of concepts to you. If you are truly a computer nerd (and I say that kindly), you must be extremely obtuse in your knowledge (said matter-of-factly). I think we're done with you know. Good day, sir. I said, Good day sir!
Wow, the ad-hominem attacks rage on. I can't even count the number of personal attacks in your response and I'm a computer nerd. I ask you once again to stick to the argument at hand. You should also take a moment to ask for forgiveness for personally attacking me and lying once again.
The fact is you have read all our posts. Your responses offer clear evidence of this. At this point you're lying about lying. How is it that the Christian on this blog is lying more than the atheists?
You ask me to man up... Well, you stole that line from one of my posts you couldn't or wouldn't respond to.
I'll paste it here for convenience:
>>
You may say I've strayed off topic here, but I'm only responding directly to assertions you have made. Don't use a double standard (You can say whatever you want, but when I respond to your assertions, I'm "off topic".
Man up!
(Jamie) says: "(God) wants a relationship/interaction with us. He doesn't need it. We need Him to be saved from our existing course, but we don't have to choose Him."
I see a number of problems with this statement:
- How could an all-powerful God want anything?
- Why would God create an imperfect being that can only be saved by doing exactly as God commands?
- Why would a loving, all powerful God damn the vast majority of his creation to eternal hell for not doing exactly as He commands?
>>
We don't need another blog if you can answer these questions. My guess is you'll once again "decide" to stop reading my posts.
Also Jamie you're not in the Army anymore.
There is no argument at hand; although there could be if you had accepted my challenge. See, that's what you don't get. YOU do not dictate the point and purpose of this blog. It has been laid out to you already. You just can't get that, which means you're not too bright. Or you're just so incredibly disrespectful to Crystal (who is the one who started and set the parameters of this blog). So for the last and final time....and you should take note that everyone can read this, even if you continue to ignore it....I will debate you on anything you want to debate on another blog after we finish this one. Accept the challenge or shut up.
It's funny cause if I respond to your insults with insults you act as though I'm the one who's wrong. What about you? You clearly insult me, then say, I didn't insult you. Just like telling me the sky isn't blue. You MUST be a liberal. If I respond to your nonsense, then 1) I'm letting you hijack this blog, 2) You ignore what I've said, and say the same ignorant things over again, and 3) then I get insulted and disrespected. If I don't respond then you claim that it must be because you're so right and I have nothing to say. You're just trying to set it up so that no matter what I do, I am wrong. But that's never going to happen because people aren't stupid and they can see that. All you're doing is showing everyone that you are what you claim I (and other Christians) am: weak, unscientific, illogical, intolerant, judgemental, full of hate, and ignorant. So, please, keep embarassing yourself. I don't know what happened in your life that has cause you to blame God, but it's too bad you CHOSE to see yourself as buried at that moment instead of planted. You've allowed whatever happened to make you weaker instead of stronger. It's like you've given up and are wearing sweat pants. Good luck to you. I hope things work out well for you. Like the story of the prodigal son, God is looking [earnestly] for your return, and for every step you walk towards Him, He will run towards you. Good bye, Steven with a "v" and not a "ph". Btw, I like that decision. If you'd ever like me to pray with you, Crystal knows how to get a hold of me (actually, J does, too, if he really thinks about it).
S, man-up isn't your saying. Lots of people say that. In fact, I started to write cowboy-up before I wrote man-up, but changed my mind cause I didn't think Stephen with a "ph" would get the cowboy-up thing. Do you really think I lied? Really? Do you really think people can't see how ignorant you are? Someone lays out the exact definition of something for you and you can't get it. Or maybe it's just that you won't accept it. Arguing over a theory or belief is one thing, arguing over a fact just makes you seem little and unintelligent. Lying is what lying is, and free will is what free will is. The only reason I'm continuing to entertain you is cause I'm bored and waiting on some paperwork to get started on my next job, in case you were wondering.
Tues. Aug. 11 reading is, Ps. 121, 123-125, 128-130; 2 Sam. 1-4
I think you lied if you said you weren't going to coment on his posts and then you did. -Kris
Why do you keep insinuating he's a homosexual?
The fundie doth protest too much, methinks.
Please note: in my questions I claim no special knowledge. I'm only pushing Jamie to justify his beliefs.
Why won't Jamie answer my very simple and direct questions.
If he's half as knowledgeable as he claims to be, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to construct a logically consistent reply.
Also, notice how he continually attacks and demeans me.
Why? Because his counterarguments are non-existent.
Well, Kris, I didn't lie. When I said that, I was completely sincere. I read and commented since then for the reasons I said. The way you all are putting it, once someone says something, they can never change their mind. This wasn't something I said about a specific fact or event, this was my sincere feeling at the time. That is not a lie. I have a right to change my mind and my feelings. I didn't change it for some kind of personal gain, on the contrary.
ok, well that makes sense Jamie, I guess.
I suppose the problem with that is you could apply that reason for every lie you tell, that has to do with your intentions, or a promise, you know?
You could say, oh I just changed my mind, but I was telling the truth when I said it. I think it just makes people distrust your word.
I suppose if one of my sons told Mom they would clean their room every day, and then didn't it's a lie, yeah, but it's more that they just failed at keeping a promise and didn't mean any harm.
That's how I look at your "lie", you just didn't keep a promise. -Kris
Kris, I understand your point. But how would anyone ever change their mind and not be called a liar? That's why I made the distinction between lying about facts, etc. for potential gain, and changing your mind about how you felt about something. I guess the only way to know would be to try and get additional info from outside sources or "evidence" of behavior to prove intention, but that seems a little much for this situation. The best I could do so that you wouldn't think I was lying (and I do care if you think I was or not) would be to ask Crystal about what she thought my intention was when I came to that decision.
I appreciate your input on this, but are you reading along with the verses? What about some input on the meaning of those? I know Crystal and I would really like more participation along those lines. Thanks.
"While this has been so much fun", she says with sarcasm in her voice, "enough is enough for GOD's sake LET IT GO!"
Raise your hand if you think these three people are ever going to agree.
anyone
anyone
anyone
Yeah that's what I thought.
Although no one really wants to hear what I have to say, I'm going to say it. So shut up for a minute and listen please, I have painting to do.
I have said this before and no one listened then, but I will say it once again.
The point of this blog was never to argue for the existence of God. I do not want Jamie to PROVE to me there is a god, or that free will exists or does not exist. I want him to explain to me WHY he believes that God exists.
Does everyone see the difference?
I have no interest in deciding if the Bible was written by men or if it is factual or not factual. My interest lies in determining how millions of people find love, hope and faith in it.
I realize I sometimes get caught up in that aspect, because it is also a very interesting discussion. But I soon remember, that's not why I'm here.
Each of you is obviously passionate about your "side" of the argument and I am stuck in the middle. I don't feel passionate about either side, that's why I wanted to read and discuss this.
I don't want proof, not right now anyway. Its not what I'm asking for.
I don't want answers to questions like "...but why would God do that?" I'm not trying to understand God, I'm trying to understand Christianity. How Christians right all of this in their minds.
Again hoping this makes since because in my head it does.
I'm not even going to get into the personal attacks, its pointless and ridiculous and everyone knows it.
I have learned so much from all of you but its turned into basically a believer and 2 non-believers read the Bible. Then they argue about who's smarter and who's prettier and who has a bigger penis.
I know what Justin's going to say, that if I'm reading it as fact then I'm being duped.
I'm just trying to see through different eyes.
That's all.
I have read the bible and know the verses very well. If I read an interpretation (spelling?) that I don't understand I go back and read it.
I went back and read quite a few, but didn't comment. I think you're really wrong about Genesis, and the Garden, since it's simply got to be allegorical, and it's how we teach it in Sunday School. Science teaches that it was way more magnificent than simply a factual account of how things happened. I'm sure God had a hand in it, but it's allegorical not to be taken literally.
Only reason I commented today was cuz you said something that struck me funny and I disagreed. I think it's ok to say you were wrong to stop engaging non-believers. Lots of us struggle with admitting that we've made mistakes, it's what makes us Human, but it don't take us further away from Christ. -Kris
I think you're smarter than that, I don't think you're being duped at all.
I just think it's intellectually dishonest to presuppose that it's factual.
Also, there have been multiple times where you've posted that exact question in your blog posts..... "why would God do that!!" in your own words, when you've read something incredulous.
I don't need to convince you that the Bible is true or isn't true, and it's not my purpose, I've stayed contextual with each of my posts and asked questions about inconsistencies in each verse post.
I've asked those questions repeatedly, and kept them on topic.
I've read the verses, each day, and asked questions daily, and gotten no answers because the answers Jamie would have to give would be embarrassing, and apologetic.
Kris, I understand your viewpoint about the Garden, but I don't agree; although I am interested in learning more of why you think that way. I feel from my research that science totally backs that up, or at the very least, does not disprove it in any way. I am always weary of Christians who attempt to incorporate secular ideas into Christianity. There's a great book called Understanding the Times by David A. Noebel that explains the why's and why not's to that.
I'm not sure I understood the last paragraph. I make a ton of mistakes, but in this instance, one of them isn't disengaging from the sideshow.
It's good to know a little background from some of the others that are following along. I wish you would have commented earlier on your take on some of these stories, like the Garden. I'm an evangelical Christian so I tend to take things more literally, but I understand that there are other Christians out there who don't. It would be completely appropriate for the purposes of this blog for you to interject what each reading means to you. That would make this much more interesting. And Crystal, I dare say, would be thrilled. I don't think she is just looking for a unified or singular Christian perspective.
What the heck happened here? Censorship? Wow.
Wow, Crystal, I'm sorry you had to start deleting comments but I like how you brought it back to the original point. Something came to my mind while reading your comments on the day's verses as well as the resulting comments here. A common oversight is that "Christianity" as a community is made up of people just like us. I make mistakes and bad judgment calls at my job, as a parent, in my friendships and in my faith. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. The really cool thing is that God chooses to forgive us and work with us anyway. The condition for that forgiveness changed when Jesus bought our freedom (thank God, imagine trying to explain a blood sacrifice to PETA today?). But my point is that only PEOPLE expect Christians to be perfect. God knows the truth about us and loves us anyway. And my point is demonstrated when you read about the likes of Saul and David (and Moses, Aaron, Elijah, Jonah, Peter, Paul, etc). God isn't asking us to be perfect, just available. David was an adulterer and a murderer, yet God said he was a man after his own heart (Acts 13:22). Is God an adulterer? No, He is able to look beyond the mistakes and see the core of who David really was. Something we as people have a very hard time doing (as evidenced by some comments in this section).
I really hope you find what you are looking for and think this blog is a very creative idea!
-Mark
Thank you so much Mark, for your comments. This is the kind of discussion I am looking for.
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