With this reading we get all sorts of ways to atone for one's sins.
You are given several options and I'm not sure but I think ones no better or worse than the other.
You have your burnt offering, which involves A LOT of blood, blood smearing, sprinkling...etc
Then you have your cereal offering, which I like MUCH better. You can offer it raw, you can bake it, fry in a pan, it can be covered with oil... this seems like a way better choice for me. With the added benefit that Aaron and his sons get left-overs.
The smell of the cereal is JUST as sweet and satisfying to the Lord, so I say let the animals live.
Basically that's it for this first reading from Leviticus.
What I want to point out is the fact that we can look at these offerings and they seem archaic and strange. So what sets these crazy traditions apart from the ones we still hold on to. Are we picking and choosing?
We choose the 10 commandments, we choose the explanations for what we do when someone does__blank__ to us.
We do not choose burnt offerings for sin atonement, we do not choose to be still on the Sabbath (for the most part), we use baking powder liberally at all times....so who's to say what we hold onto and what we let go of?
...but I'm going to venture a guess its got a little something to do with Jesus (read with the Spanish pronunciation, please).
41 comments:
You are absolutely right...it has everything to do with Jesus. All of these things were a sacrifice for atonment of sins, but when Jesus came and was crucified, His blood became the atonment for all sins - past, present, and future. However, unlike many Baptists and Catholics think, this is not a free for all. It's only granted to a sincere heart. You cannot willfully and deliberately sin and do what YOU KNOW is wrong and think God will forgive you. In the New Testament it talks about the hardening of your heart. That's where you get so used to sinning (knowing that it's sin) that YOU no longer feel guilty. YOU've lost the conviction of the Holy Spirit and when that happens I don't care if you're the Pope or the pastor of the largest church in world, YOU're in danger of losing your salvation; in fact, YOU've probably already lost it. The only way to get it back is to admit, OPENLY, what YOU've done and ask for God's forgiveness and of those whom YOUR sin hurt. AND to stop doing whatever it is that YOU were doing.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that God wants our best, not perfection. Jesus was the only perfect human.
If you don't sincerely try to stop sinning, you're salvation will never be real or secured. If you want to get out of the hole YOU're in, YOU have to stop digging.
Can you point me to any Baptist or Catholic doctrine that states that they believe absolution is a free for all?
No, but more importantly, I can point to millions of people who act that way. This is why they think (and do) it's ok to sin (do whatever they want) and then go to confession, and it's all taken care of. The Bible (regardless of what the Pope says) does not say that's the case. You have to be sincere of heart. So you can't party like a rock star on Sat. night, and go to mass on Sun. morning, week after week, and think you're ok with God.
Can you point me to some specific quotes or papers that are attributed to the Pope that support what you're asserting?
I think it's humorous that you have your own definition of how to get into Heaven. I am pretty sure that's laid out by Christ already and it doesn't have anything to do with anything but your faith and acceptance of Christ as your Saviour.
Also, you seem like a bright enough guy, so my advice is to really think about what you're posting before you do so. To say that God doesn't desire us to be perfect is a lie.
Matthew 5:48 indicates otherwise. It also highlights more inconsistency, but that's another discussion.
Actually, it is not a lie. God knows that we could NEVER on this Earth achieve perfection. Jesus was, and will be, the only perfect human. And to assert that I'm lying is offensive. I would never purposely mislead or say anything that I knew to be false when it comes to the Bible. I'm merely writing my view point on "gray" areas and the FACTs of what the Scripture says.
Why do you keep asking for paperwork? Isn't centuries of Catholic "rules" proof enough. No where in the Bible will you find a basis for confession, hail marys, our fathers, worshipping or praying to Mary, etc. etc. Yet these are part of Catholicism. Baptism, for example, as it is described in the Bible cannot be done FOR a baby. It's a testimony to your decision to follow Christ. It's not a dedication for your parents on your behalf. So the Catholic practice of baptising babies isn't Biblical at all. Since you seem like an intelligent person I'm sure you'll agree that words and doctrines aside, actions are what count. I mean, you can say and write whatever you want, but what is it that you do?
The perfection that God is speaking of in Mathew 5:48 is a journey, and effort, not a destination. It's absurd to think that God thinks we're able to achieve perfection on Earth. We are God's masterpiece in progress. We will not be complete in this lifetime. All thru the New Testament it speaks of sincere effort in not sinning. It acknowledges that we will always make mistakes and sin. So you cannot take one verse out of context and think it nullifies the rest of the text as a whole.
I do not have my own definition of how to get into Heaven. I have the Bible's definition (which is very specific) of how to receive (and keep) salvation. It is quite simply: to acknowledge that you were born a sinner, to acknowledge that Jesus was the Son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins, and to accept Him as your personal savior. And to keep salvation by: sinerely trying (to re-train) yourself not to sin. And by that I mean purposefully and willfully living a life of sin. You're going to make mistakes, some may be big mistakes. But God knows your heart and mind. You can't fool Him into thinking you're saved or sincere. That's it. You don't have to be baptised or anything else. And the only mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. Not a priest, not the Pope, not Mary, not the saints, not the apostles, as good as all of these people are and were; only Jesus. This is the reason we pray, "...In Jesus name, Amen."
BTW, I think extensively about what I write...and more importantly, pray about it. This blog isn't for me to debate aspects of Catholic or Christian theology with other Godly people, it's to share, spread, and explain the Word of God to my friend, a skeptic, to the best of my admittedly limited human ability. I don't pretend to be perfect, nor do I assert that I have a "bat line" to God with all of the answers. Neither does anyone else. But I do know what I can read in black and white.
Laying aside all of the dogma of both Baptists and Catholics, how do you explain the motivation of an all knowing/all powerful God creating humans seemingly for the purpose of sending most of them to Hell?
Wouldn't he know before he created the Garden of Eden that there would be billions and billions of people that would go to hell once he got the ball rolling?
Is this really the best plan an all powerful God could come up with?
How can there be free will when God knows before I was even born what decisions I would/will make? Specifically, the decision to accept him as my savior.
Stephen, I don't think the purpose of God creating man was to send them to Hell. It was simply for companionship. We discussed this in earlier posts, but I know you just started following. I don't know why he couldn't get that companionship from angels.
I'm sure He did know that many people (like Satan) would choose to not be "with" Him, but love can never be sincere when it's forced. That's why it has to be our choice. I mean think of all of the everyday choices that people choose even though they know it's bad or wrong. Satan, being a fallen angel, is/was acutely aware of God and His character, and chose to go his own way.
I don't pretend to know God's mind or His purposes. Later, we'll read in Isaiah 55:9 that God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours (He is God, afterall). I think trying to know why and how all of our lives so complexly (is that a word) intertwine is way above our understanding.
And knowing what choices you'd make isn't the same as making them for you.
There's a lot of things I'd like to say, but even on this blog there just isn't enough room. I think your questioning whether or not there is a God. For the purposes of this blog, we are just reading the Bible, and I'm trying to explain what I think the main and underlying lessons are to be learned from each reading. In other words, we're not, at the present, trying to debate the veracity of the Bible. Questions are great and I will do my best to answer them, but I'm not a pastor, and I don't have all of the answers. I would encourage you to read along with us and discuss what, if anything, you got out of it or think it means. I could start a debate of creationism vs. evolution, etc. and all that entails, that's just not what we're doing at present. We can touch on those things little by little as we slowly go through the entire Word; I'm trying to point out those things as we go along. Otherwise, I think we'll fall in to the old rut of missing the forest for the trees. This is also the same reason I am trying not to delve to much into differing theological aspects of various Christian religions. We got a little off track. To me, it's not about religion; it's about the Bible. I believe in God and His Word. The parts that are clearly written in black and white to me are unchangeable/undistortable. The "gray" areas I try to take into account the overall context of the entire Bible to discern what I think is right for me. And when/if I get that wrong, I know that I'll feel it, through guilt, which in my opinion according to the Bible is the Holy Spirit letting me know that I'm getting it wrong.
I'm going to ask Crystal to post at the end of her posting for each day, the next day's reading so that anyone who wants can read along with us.
Jamie,
I was raised and lived sincerely as a "born again" Christian until my early 20's (I'm in my mid 30's now) and I have read through and studied the entire Bible more than once.
I'll respect your construct that this blog is specifically for reading through and examining the Bible, but I have to follow up to the points you made in your reply.
The reason I brought up the questions in my previous post is that they speak to the very premises the Bible is founded on.
If you can't explain why God needed companionship (Why would an all powerful being need or want anything?) and if you can't explain why God chooses to create beings that are flawed (sending most of them to an ETERNAL torment for not OBEYING his Word) then it seems to me that this entire exercise is an attempt to justify your assumptions.
If God's nature is "above our understanding", how can you say anything about him? If what he revealed to us in the Bible raises more questions than it answers, what was his purpose in giving it to us? If our own logic and reasoning can so easily raise these fundamental questions, why give us the gift of logic and reason?
If this is due to the effects of Satan, why let Satan have power over us? He is obviously very deceptive and we are very easily deceived (Adam and Eve). Furthermore, why did God create Satan at all?
If it is to test our sincerity then we're back to God sending most people (the insincere) to Hell for eternity for merely falling victim a more deceptive and powerful adversary (Satan). This seem very unfair. You can argue we choose to go to hell by disobeying God, but God is the one who made the rules. He could have easily made them so that the insincere ceased to exist or were reborn to try again. Both of these options seem much more compassionate and moral than the current system.
If it were up to me, I would send no one to hell. Does this mean I'm more moral than God?
Sorry if this is going on too long, but these are fundamental questions that need answers before we can accept any further arguments based on the Bible
Stephen, I think there are some misconceptions here.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I belive what I believe unwaiveringly. That does not mean that I don't have my own questions. I don't feel I have to justify anything to anyone. As I said earlier, Crystal and I are simply reading the Bible slowly (assuming it is at true, esp. the historical parts) and I'm trying to answer her questions the best that I can. That's all.
You're kind of trying to get me into this circular logic thing which a lot of un-believers try; and I'm not going to do that.
Just because I don't understand everything about God doesn't mean that I don't or can't understand anything about God.
I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying about "that" being the premise the whole Bible is founded upon. But I will say that free will means we have the freedom to choose. Now, I know you know that academically, but you keep asking why doesn't God just make everyting ok and why didn't He just do that from the beginnning; but that is not free will. If we don't have the choice to be in a relationship with Him or not, then that wouldn't be real love. I don't know how to explain that any better. I think this answers most of your questions of why did God do this, and why does He allow Satan, etc. and why doesn't He just change the rules. None of that would be indicative of free will.
Having read the Bible you know that we were not flawed in the beginning and that we were created in the image of God. It was disobedience that led to our downfall. Our ability to freely choose and making that wrong choice changed what we were from flawless to flawed. We were created perfectly.
And I want to say in the most non-agressive way I can....I don't have to justify, make right (in your eyes), or otherwise independently prove anything. As I said, God's Word is not on trial here. This is not about proving the veracity of the Bible. I believe it, and by Crystal reading it and me doing my best to explain what I think it means, and having other people follow along, I'm hoping that Crystal will become a believer by consequence. As we go along I will point out areas that I think are mis-interpreted by certain religions or skeptics, as well as areas that are supported by "outside" sources, e.g. science, math, history, archeology, etc.
Crystal, I'm gonna post the next day's reading on here so that if anyone wants to follow along with that too they can.
Today's was Leviticus 5-7.
Tomorrow's is Lev. 8-10
Ah, but we would still have free will if God allowed "non-believers" to cease to exist or be reborn to try again.
Doesn't is seem vindictive of God to send non-believers to hell to be tormented forever?
I don't know if you have children, but would you under any circumstances want to see them tortured for a day? A year? An eternity? Is there anything your child could do to you that would justify this punishment?
My point is that it's completely unfair to be punished for an eternity due to "sins" committed in a finite world.
I believe it's wrong to torture hardened criminal and terrorists because it is inhumane. Why then is it ok for God to do this to a person who "lived a good life" but just didn't acknowledge God? Or say, a person who lived in a remote Chinese village that never got the chance to hear about Jesus?
That's extremely petty. This is not the actions of loving God. And this doesn't even take into account God's commandments to stone disobedient children or commit genocide which you will cover later in the Old Testament.
Additionally, If you read the Bible assuming it's true, how can you have an objective view? Doing this will only insure that you validate your already held ideas and eliminate any possibility that you will learn anything new. My logic isn't circular. The Bible's logic is circular. This is what I'm trying to convey to you.
You're right that you don't have to justify anything to me. I don't mean to threaten you. I'm only politely and fairly challenging your assumptions.
I only hope you take my questions to heart as you read the Bible and think about God.
Especially since you say that you wish to:
"point out areas that (you) think are mis-interpreted by certain religions or skeptics, as well as areas that are supported by "outside" sources, e.g. science, math, history, archeology, etc."
While at the same time saying:
"I don't pretend to know God's mind or His purposes."
I step out of my house for a few hours and we have this insane debate going on.
Boys may I have your attention, I as the resident sceptic and creater of this blog would like to say something.....or as Jerry Blanks would say "I GOT SOMETHIN TO SAY!"
I love the debate and am super happy for it, but lets keep it on topic, lets debate the days reading and lessons from it otherwise there is no point in me reading it.
As I am appearently the only one who hasn't read it, don't spoil it for me by telling me what's happening next...although I have heard a main character dies at some point.
Please, if you are new to the blog, go back and at least read the Backstory so tha you know exactly what we are doing here.
All I hope for is a educated, respectful, and open discussions. My hope is we can each get a better understanding as to where each other is coming from.
Stephen, all I can do is reiterate what I've already said. It isn't free will if God kills everyone who doesn't accept Him.
And the Bible is clear on consequences. We are accountable. If you don't like that, then I don't know what to tell you. If you, having already been a Christian and read the Bible, choose not to believe then I don't know what you want me to say to you. I, too, have read the Bible a few times and am completely satisfied with the explanations it gives despite having some questions left over. That's what faith is.
I have a lot of kids, btw. Thanks for asking. And I tell them every day that there are consequences to their actions. I don't like having to spank them, but I do.
And I don't want to get too far into this, cause as Crystal and I have both stated, this is not the purpose of this blog...but I don't consider criminals and terrorists as equals; nor do I mind terrorists being tortured for information to prevent further killing of innocent civilians. And for the record, I KNOW water-boarding is not torture. Lastly, revolutionists (revolting in their own country, not targeting "soft" targets) are not terrorists, either. That's all I'll say about that kind of stuff since this is not a political blog. In fact, that is the last time I respond politically to any quest. or comment on this blog, political or not.
All I can tell you Stephen is that I believe in accountability and consequences.
We are reading (kind of) assuming it's true so that Crystal can ask questions, and try (as she's expressed a desire to do so) and understand me and my viewpoints.
Esp. as a former believer I would strongly caution you on judging God or calling him petty and vindictive. Cause if you're right, that might be a problem for you. ;)
People can can do use the Bible to justify anything and this is what you are doing.
Did Jesus water-board anyone? (flip, flip, flip) Nope. Did Jesus strike anyone? (flip, flip, flip) Nope.
What did Jesus say? Turn the other cheek.
What did Jesus say? Judge not lest you be judged.
Alas, this is what I will do since you aren't willing or able.
Enjoy your torture God! He sounds awesome.
Cheers.
Okay, so this is exactly what I did not want to happen.
This just proves my point that my and Jamie's relationship is rare indeed.
Here's what I don't get about people: Why is it that when people disagree with each other, if they can't make each other understand within like, one sitting, they're done....
I just think that's the problem with the world, no one listens to each other.
I find it very frustrating.....
Don't be discouraged. Stephen is clearly trying to convince me that I'm wrong in my beliefs. I believe what I believe for the reasons that I believe it. It's a silly attempt. I'm not going to criticize him or anyone else for what they believe spiritually. If he chooses not to believe that's up to him. But he will never convince me of what I know to be true.
Satan tried to do the same thing to Jesus. He tried to use Scripture against Him. It didn't work then either. All you can tell people is that if you want to not believe that's fine. That is not what this blog is about. But some people are so obtuse that they can't help but to continue arguing.
This is what we spoke of earlier (Crystal and I)...about people who take a verse or two (usu. out of context) and then try to justify their thinking, instead of taking the entire context of the Bible. There are clear rules in the Bible. There are distinctions made about when it's ok to kill and when it's not. There are clear consequences to those rules. Some are to be had in Heaven and others on Earth. Just as the Bible says turn the other cheek, it also says (more than once) eye for an eye,etc. Consequences and accountability are as much a part of the Bible as mercy and forgiveness. If any of you continue to read and follow along, I think you'll see that, and you'll see the Bible in a more common sense light. Even if you don't ultimately agree or believe at least you'll know where Christians are coming from and why they hold the viewpoints they do.
You can always tell when someone's only objective is to argue...they use words like "ahh" and "see". They're looking for "gotcha" moments. Stephen will never have a "gotcha" moment with me. Nor will he ever be able to stump me.
Bottom line is, if you believe no explanation is necessary, and if you don't, no explanation will do....with these kind of people.
Judge not lest ye be judged....
Christians are absolutely supposed to call out other Christians when they are sinning. Judging isn't pointing out that someone is doing wrong. It's declaring what is going to happen to them because of that. Judging someone's worth or supposing to tell someone where their final destination will be before their end is judging. How could it be wrong or judging to simply state that someone is doing something that the Bible clearly says is a sin, and that the Bible says that if you commit that sin and do not repent that you are going to Hell. That's not a judgement statement, that's a fact.
Jamie,
Obviously I'm not going to change your mind and I've already been down the Christian road and found it lacking in real love and humility.
The fact that you support torture and strike your children tells me things have only went downhill.
You pick and choose your own verses to validate your own prejudices (beating children, torture) and ignore Jesus' call turning the other cheek. (See also: The meek shall inherit the earth.) So you are guilty of the exact same offense as those you criticize.
The only difference is that it is YOU making the decisions and distinctions. The sad thing is that you don't allow for the possibility that you could be wrong. This is the beginning of intolerance and hate.
Also, you say: " It isn't free will if God kills everyone who doesn't accept Him."
This makes no sense. The opposite is true. If someone says to you: You must do as I say or face an eternity of torment. This is absolutely the opposite of free will. You don't have a choice. Who would choose the eternal torment in that situation.
If God really wanted to give us free will he would allow us to freely choose without fear of damnation.
And to Crystal,
I apologize for being brash, but some arguments do not deserve respect. Some arguments should be ridiculed. Especially arguments that support torture and breed intolerance.
There is more than one way to get by in this world. The Bible does not have a monopoly on morality. In fact it often promotes the opposite.
Stephen, you win. I will pray for you as I do everyone who reads and visits this blog.
Jamie,
I'm not trying to win. I'm trying help you see your own prejudices. You have to allow for other possibilities to test if your assumptions are correct.
Instead of praying for me, do me the favor of sincerely thinking through the points I made about hell and a God who would create such a place.
If you do that, we all win.
I will now bow out of this discussion so as not to be a further distraction.
FYI, Steven, I'm 37 years old. I first went to church when I was 10 days old. I raised Pentencostal. I was voted Mr. Vacation Bible School when I was five. Accepted Christ and was baptized by 8. I went to public school til highschool. When I began rebelling I was sent to a Christian school where I was most out of dress code and most trips to the office. I was summarily kicked out of that highschool in my junior year and was sent south to live with my grandmother. This is where I met Crystal. I continued my rebellion up to about age 28 when I slowly began to come back to God. I have a college education, I was in the Army during the first Gulf War, and I've lived in a lot of different places and trained and lived with a lot of different people, including Arabs and Muslims. I've done all of the questioning I need to do, but thank you for trying to enlighten me.
I'm sorry you feel that way. For me life is all about the questions and I plan to remain curious. I will take any opportunity to entertain a new idea or concept.
If it works for you to believe what you believe, good for you. You've found some happiness and that's a good thing.
The problem is when you force this view on others or at least imagine you KNOW how they should live.
There are many fruitful and healthy ways to live your life and some of them have nothing to do with religion or Christianity.
I don't have all the answers, no one does. This doesn't bother me. What bothers me is people who think they do have the answers.
I'm no longer religious. So, I can examine new ideas based on evidence and logical reasoning. I'd hate to be to be tied down to a single view that I must defend in the face of logical absurdity.
Which is where you find yourself.
(Loving, All Powerful God - Eternal Torture)
Alright again as the skeptic and best friend of a believer I find myself in a strange situation. Here is what I know to be true. I address both of you here.
As for Stephen, I completly know where you are coming from. I have some MAJOR personal problems with religion, some of which Jamie is one of the few people who know about.
But allow me to say this. Jamie and I have a history, a very very strange, ironic history. The fact that he and I have reconnected and become each others very best friend is, I think, a little more than considence.
Because of my belief that everyone comes into your life for a purpose, I listen.
The beauty of what he and I have is that we listen. He has never once told me "how" I should live, just explained how he lives.
He has known from day one, my beliefs and if he has judged me, I never knew about it.
I've told him from the first discussion we had, that I don't want to change what he thinks, why would I? He's a great person, because of his beliefs. I envy his faith actually. Thats why I started this, to better understand it. I wish, when my grandfather died I could have been comforted by the idea that he was in heaven and that perhaps I would see him again. Who wouldn't want to believe that. I wish I could.
I just don't want anyone to go away with the wrong idea.
Jamie believes what he believes and what the hell is wrong with that, why is it our responsibility to make him drop all of that if it makes him a better person because of it?
We believe what we believe, Jamie and I aren't trying to change that, just a better understanding of each other.
I'm sorry this has gone so long, I just hate that it's gotten so ugly. I didn't really want it too. I just want a discussion.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if I'm coming off that way, I apologize.
If someone's view must be held with kid gloves, I question the validity of their argument. Why can't it stand up to sincere, but strict questioning?
I think we've all been pretty mature by internet standards. We each are passionate about our views and are acting accordingly.
My only problem with Jamie is that he believes that I'm going to hell because I don't believe as he does.
He literally believes I will burn in hell forever. I'm not a Saint, to be sure, but I don't deserve to burn forever. No one does.
For a God to require this as punishment for anything defies logic. I don't want to worship a God that is this vain and vindictive. I don't know of a nicer way to interpret that line of logic.
So, I think I'm well within my rights to take offense when someone makes this claim.
Our beliefs should be rational and at all time based in reality not on something that is very ancient and open to individual interpretation. There's no way to be certain of the intent of any text, especially one as complex as the Bible.
But here's what I don't understand, who cares that he thinks that? Seriously, I never understood that argument, even as a skeptic....Who the hell cares where this guy thinks you're spending eternity.
You think he's nuts....right? He things we're going to hell, whateves....we mind as well take a minute and listen to one another, thats all I'm saying.
I care what he thinks because people who share his beliefs make policies that effect us all.
Our former "Christian" President invaded two countries with flimsiest of evidence all the while quoting the Bible. How many people have died because of this? How many people have suffered?
We have religious people in office who want to tell us what we can and can't do with our own bodies. These decisions are based on their beliefs.
So, beliefs are real. They have consequences. People die and are oppressed every day because of beliefs.
I do listen to what people have to say, but if I find fault in the thinking, I will not hesitate to call them out on it. If that makes them mad or uncomfortable that is their problem.
I remain polite, but I think I'm well within my rights to say what I've said.
I think it's very important to own that belief, as well. I think that's part of Stephen's posit.
I think that Jamie, in the context of this discussion and experience(reading and sharing the basis of his theological stance) owes that to you.
I, for one, would appreciate it, since I read very tongue-in-cheek posts by you crystal, if Jamie would own that very same belief and apply it to you.
Jamie, do you believe that Crystal deserves eternal damnation, banishment, and punishment in Hell?
Do you feel that is a fair judgement levyed by your God?
I own my beliefs, and would understand your discussion better were I to have some insight.
Please don't say that it's not your place to judge, not asking you to do that, as that is the role of the Creator, God Almighty.
I only want to know if you personally believe she deserves that, were she to continue her life without Christ.
You own your beliefs, but not your comments; that's why you post anonymously. But that, again, is typical. Say one thing, do another.
I believe Crystal, having been given the opportunity to know Jesus and to become a Christian refuses to do so will go to Hell. I believe that is her choice. I believe that, according to the Bible not my own self-righteousness, that she will deserve to go to Hell (for refusing His gift and continuing to knowingly sin).
How you get that Stephen was trying to get me to own my beliefs I'll never know. I owned them from the very beginning, and told him so over and over again. After learning of all the reasons he wasn't going to sway me, because I had already gone down the road he is on (he is trailing behind me, not me behind him), he became like most secularists/liberals do nowadays..very angry. Talk about intolerance...once he knew that I knew everything (and probably more) than he does about the Bible and life in general, but still chose to praise, worship, and serve God it sent him into a tizzy. What you people don't understand is that as much absurdity and illogical notions you think religion and Christianity purport, Christians think equally of you. No Christian on any major venue has lost a debate to a secularist on any issue. Never. For every "fact" you can come up with about let's say, evolutionary THEORY, I can come up with 3 for creationism. But, again, we're getting off subject. Stephens comments, and I'm beginning to think Grommans are misplaced for this blog. If they'd like to debate these issues further, I'd be happy to make them friends on my Facebook...that is where I annihilate secularists and liberals. Let me know. Only two rules: no vulgarity, and no personal attacks on each other.
Sorry I didn't have my login set up at home, it's still me, I didn't mean to post anonymous, but I appreciate the jabs at me, along with the assumptions you make about my person.
Let me break the question down again, with just a yes/no criteria, not sure how you got sidetracked on evolution....
Here we go:
Do you feel that Crystal deserves eternal damnation and to burn in hell forever?
Jamie,
Is your God a loving god? Is He all powerful and all knowing?
If so, why do you think that he requires people to suffer eternal torture for not doing exactly as he says?
How is that loving? Especially when it's within his power to create a world with less suffering.
How is it free will when we MUST do as He says or suffer eternal torture?
For me this is a major disconnect in your argument.
Either your God isn't all powerful or he isn't a Loving God.
In either case He doesn't deserve my "worship".
Gromman, ok, sorry, I didn't know it was you.
To answer your question: Yes.
If this is an attempt to bait me into a "gotcha" moment it won't work. If it's straight up question, then that is fair and I thank you for asking.
I'm not sure why you bothered asking, though. I mean, I've said several times that I believe in the Bible. All of it. Not just parts. I believe Crystal will go to Hell if she doesn't accept Christ. As far as "deserving"...how am I who is also sinful able to determine that? The Bible says I cannot from a standpoint of righteousness...only God can because He is the only being that is completely righteous. But again, these questions would be better suited when we get into the New Testament.
Stephen, you're right God does not deserve your worship.
thanks for your answer!
I'm not reading or commenting with the intention of doing anything more than providing my viewpoint and commentary on what Crystal is posting and what you're responding with.
I'm also not going to pretend to hold any belief system or faith-based system with any default validity or permanent, and that 100% includes my own.
I only ask, because I think that ground rules are important, in the context of a theological discussion. Making it very clear that your position is at direct odds with mine, and that I feel my position is actually MORE moral and sound will give you (and hopefully Crystal) a different perspective and feedback on what you're reading.
If it's insulting, or baiting, I can't apologize, you don't ever have to answer me if you don't want to, I won't get offended.
You didn't address any of my concerns. I raise very serious issues here and you choose to gloss over them.
I'm being sincere and polite and you are essentially telling me to "go to hell".
You believe I'm going to burn for eternity, but I can't see any love and concern for your fellow man in your interactions with me.
Does this tell what I need to know about your religion?
Gromman, I appreciate and respect your viewpoint(s). Ask me any question you like about my beliefs. I've already learned a lot from this blog....good and bad....from everyone who has posted. I don't pretend to have all the answers, so I'm sure I will learn along the way, too.
Stephen, you may be sincere, but you are not polite. Case in point, as soon as I declined to believe as you do, you became disrepsectful, condescending, and down right obnoxious.....and to this you continue. You're a typical liberal. I did not summarily dismiss you because of your fair questions or comments straight away, I waited until it became clear that no matter how I answered it would not be good enough. If the Bible doesn't satisfactorily answer your questions, then that's your problem ( or solution to be fair), don't attempt to make it mine.
Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts (not really). Btw, the facebook challenge remains. Or are your beliefs so weak an untennable that you cannot you not handle being friends with a Christian.<---notice no question mark, put up or shut up. You never know, we might become great friends, too. If nothing else, like the Bible says, one man sharpens another man as iron sharpens iron. Let's sharpen each other.
I'm sorry if I'm disrespectful, but when someone says I'm condemned to eternal torment for not believing exactly as they do, I kind of take offense to that.
When this same person doesn't response to my questions and instead continues to dismiss me with the threat of hell, I get a little prickly. I hope you can see my POV on this.
Your views do not stand up to logic. If you can't debate me with logic, we're left with personal bias and preconceived assumptions.
Those tactics advance only intolerance and bigotry.
I see no point in continuing this debate on Facebook. I don't think it's wise to give my personal information to someone who supports torture and believes in a vindictive god.
I honestly fear for my safety.
You have done a disservice to your religion today. I hope one day you find some love and compassion.
I'd hate to think you will live the rest of your life with such evil in your heart.
I just laugh and laugh. You are SUCH a typical liberal. Spouting off "facts" and judgments despite all evidence to the contrary.
I assure you, you have nothing to fear. I'm a small business owner, Christian (who although believes in consequences doesn't think that I have to avenge for God), and a father of five. The only thing you have to fear is losing the debate on ANY topic....you choose.
I love it how you try to put it so that no matter what I say it can (in your mind) be dismissed as based on nothing. I could soooo do that to you, but alas, like a typical liberal, you surface think, make accusation and judgements with supposed "good intentions"(which really apply to yourself), but leave yourself an out so that you don't have to have your positions destroyed in a real and meaningful debate. How bout this...why don't YOU and I start our own blog on here just for that purpose? You can invite all of your liberal friends, and I will invite no one. I will debate any and all of you by my illogical, superstitious, unintelligent, feeble self. Ok? You can choose the topics, let's make them weekly if that's ok; and you can call me any names you want or anything...I won't quit participating. And since you know that I can't lie without endangering myself to hell-fire because of the judmentalness and vindictiveness of my petty God, you know I'll honor that commitment.
I think you're just a sniper. You're like a terrorist...you want to butt in with little jabs, but when it comes to real, full-on engagement you run and make excuses.
All I want to know is this:
Why does a supposedly loving, all knowing, all powerful God require someone to be tortured forever for not doing EXACTLY as He commands. Additionally, how does that square with free will if we really don't have choice.
1. He KNEW how everything would play out before he created the Garden of Eden. (before 'time' began)
2. Why would an all powerful being desire companionship or anything at all.
3. How can it be a loving relationship (free choice) when the only option is "Do as I say or be tortured forever".
If you can't answer this question logically in your next post I see no point in continuing this discussion much less starting another blog.
Crystal, just as I txtd you, I am done with Stephen. Although I've told him and challenged him that I would answer to the best of my ability ANY questions concerning: theology, history, biology, sociology, philosophy, ethics, psychology, law, politics, or economics on another blog, he refuses. He can't seem to understand that any time you have more than one option, regardless of how much you dislike the options, you have the ability to freely choose. Christians have been choosing to stand up for their beliefs despite the only other choice (in many instances throughout history, i.e. Roman colesseum) being that of death. Apparently, his beliefs aren't that strong.
And of course the assertion that any belief system that leaves questions to be answered should be disregarded is completely foolish, since there is no belief system in the world that does not have those. So if we applied this same "logic" to his belief system, assuming he knows what it is, his would have to disregarded as illogical, too by his own standards.
Butt, anywho, this blog is about you and not him or I. So let's get back to business.
Jamie,
If someone says to you:
"Give me your wallet or I will beat, rape and kill you"
If that free will? No.
Sure, you made a decision but it was under duress and the options were not debatable or open. Someone FORCED you to bend to THEIR will.
If someone says to you:
"Do you want to go to the movies or the beach?"
Is that free will? Yes. You can freely choose either depending on your preference without fear of harm and no one forced their will on you.
There is a difference.
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